September 26, 2009
Some people are more interested in paying out Christianity, airing their own opinions, making a mockery of the faith and of you than actually really wanting ot know the answers. The often deflect a healthy discussion about Christianity by offering cheap shots. And we need to be aware of: A fool [who] finds no pleasure in understanding, but delights in airing his own opinions. (Prov. 18:2)
Sure they may feel passionate about their one-liner but may have nothing to back up the statement they made. Often these statements are sincere but often not. Don’t get me wrong honest questions deserve our best answers. If you don’t know the answers you can always offer to research and get back to them. But more often than not our friends throw us careless one-liner that can high jack the conversation.
Some examples of these one liners that can often derail conversations and make the Christian squirm are:
- There is no proof of God
- All Religions are basically the same
- You shouldn’t force your views on me
- You can’t trust the bible it is not reliable
- God can’t really exist because their is so much evil and suffering in the world.
Here are five examples of responses that are questions to help you push your friend to back up their claim and to help you discern whether this is a cheap shot or a genuine question.
- What do you mean by that?
- How did you come to that conclusion?
- Can you give me an example of that?
- How do you know that?
- Yeah, wow that is a valid point, can you slow down and tell me how you came to that conclusion?
We should be able require your challenger to back up the claim. Burden of proof should be on the person you makes the claim not on the target of the claim. Get them to back up the claim before you answer. Often they will answer with another general one liner.
“We should be able require your challenger to back up the claim. Burden of proof should be on the person you makes the claim not on the target of the claim.”
Indeed. You are claiming there is a god, and that god is the one you define. Please back up your claim.
Otherwise, everything you have stated above, is exactly what we would expect of christians. They DON’T supply answers, they just use word play to avoid the mass of questions, and claim rights above those of others because they believe in a fairy.
1/ Show logic and reason behind the existence of a supernatural entity other than pointing continually at your bible and using it’s phrases to point out positions that most all humans find totally obvious regardless as we are evolutionary socialistic beings.
2/ Show how your god is the one true god, amongst hundreds of others, and thousands that have gone before you.
3/ Show us the evidence of the claims for a young earth, and the ‘fact’ of creation that you claim is an alternative Theory (and look up how a scientific theory actually works) to the evolution of humans from a common ancestor to other life. Actually read up on what evolution actually is, that it is seperate from abiogenesis and cosmology, and approach the facts, not the straw man you put forward
4/ Stop trying to point at non-belief, and saying it is a belief (like not stamp collecting is a ‘hobby’) as it does not make sense to anyone but you.
5/ Explain why we have mountains of evidence that contradict the creationists claims, why the mass of evidence in radioactivity, tree rings, ice cores, corals, supernovas – from astronomy, biology, physics, geology, chemistry and archeology all combine and go against your faiths concepts.
6/ explain why your god has always existed, and the universe in some form, couldn’t. (you may want to actually read up on scientific concepts like singularities and bubble universes etc etc)
My personal and subjective response:
My life has been so radically changed by understanding the bible that I personally find it difficult to not believe. On my own, or by my own faculties I would not believe in a god. As someone who became a Christian 6 years ago, I would never have thought that I would now be one and so much so that I’d work for a church.The fact that I read the bible, comprehended it in the basic sense and then understood it and believed is the work of God. The person, life and work of Jesus has so changed me: my thoughts, actions, speech, lifestyle, that I can’t deny his power, his existence and him being the truth.
[if you are keen to chat about this stuff I am happy to meet up with you to chat in person your questions... I'd love to converse about these things]
mind the jumpers this guy sometime wears… but have a listen?
meh. this is exactly the problem you have just proved my point. Yet folk like yourself don’t understand that.
When people ask about honest questions that are massive hurdles in ever coming to grips with faith, you sidestep.
Until you confront these issues, your faith will just slowly peter away as people become more educated in actually thinking about them. The internet and education is your problem. It’s harder for you to keep avoiding questions such as these, and your faith shows itself for what it is, a massive leap with no clear reasoning or logic to it.
That’s not evidence, that’s assumptions.
Universe is not designed, there are very clear and well understood explanations for most everything, and we are finding out more and more each day. You are just making a total leap of faith to put a god, your god as a ‘designer’
life from life, in fact there are a number of ways life could have formed (look up abiogenesis). I find your leap to saying that everything just popped into existence a greater leap.
moral absolutes? most Christians would consider it wrong to murder children, but according to the Bible, God repeatedly committed this sin, murdering the first born of every Egyptian household, murdering all of the children alive during the Noah Flood, murdering 42 kids for making fun of a prophet. How many Christians would consider God a sinner? If there are moral absolutes, you would have to be confined by them.
Love is very well explain by science, as mentioned it is part of our genetic evoltionary makeup as social animals.
I find the ‘evidence’ this fellow claims to just be faith, nothing more, indeed his leaps are greater than the solid evidence of science that goes against his statements, it’s just wordplay.
I agree… Christianity is about faith. I don’t deny that. But so is atheism: you have faith and trust in the answers that are yet to be revealed: “we are finding out more and more each day.”
To be honest Gee Sus… I think our discussion is futile as you seem to shut me down as I do attempt to share the logic behind my faith. You raise 101 things which is difficult to answer in brief on a blog. I still want to offer to catch up – by phone or in person (I’d be happy to fly down to victoria… or if you are super keen how about we set up a coffee forum for you, me and a buddy each so that we feel more in our comfort zones).
I also find it disconcerting that you don’t put a real name to these comments and hide your identity, whereas I am quite forthright in who I am, where I live and work!
As social beings you have to agree that face-to-face is a good thing – are you up for that!?
Atheism = lack of a belief in a god or gods.
That is not a belief, that is not faith. That’s like saying not stamp collecting is a hobby.
I stated we are finding our more and more each day, this does not therefore mean that I believe we will find out all answers to all questions. I do however know we will find the answers to many. I think that if you are making a claim that you have the answer, you should provide reasoning and evidence as to that claim. Not just state ‘you don’t know, so my version of god did it’ without actually providing any evidence, reason or logic, only claiming it.
Your jesus all about life campaign claims answers, but you provide none.
The reasoning behind using a pseudonym, is that in our current society, non-believers are oppressed. Being a non-believer and a vocal one due to the pressures your faith is putting on our law, politics and people, prejudice from believers can see one lose work and be made a social outcast, or targeted with legal threats to silence critique. It can have ones children targeted for not having a belief in a fairy at school and socially from other children pressured by their parents for them to react. There are numerous reasons along this line.
I am not shutting you down, as you are not providing any logic at all, you are only stating you have faith. You are avoiding the questions that have been asked, while only claiming you have answers.
I do not see the point meeting face to face, I cannot. Considering that Freehills lawyers have been visiting the site that I am involved with, and we have already had legal threats from your campaign trying to silence any critique, I am forced to protect myself and my children. I understand completely the level that religion will go to maintain it’s position of power.
Dear GeeSuss.
I can empathise with your fear of being publically critiqued and judged due to your viewpoints. As a Christian I am also judged because of my beliefs. I would also like to apologise on behalf of the Christians who have intimidated you and your family.
I will try to answer some of your previous questions in the most helpful way I can. Please know that these questions are complex and require more than a blog comment board to answer them. It is my hope to sincerely try to address your queries.
1. I would point you to the world in general as an indicator of a supernatural entity. The feelings that we feel while looking at an incredible sunset/view are transcendant of the collection of atoms that we are made up of. There is a grandness to life and the world which screams that there is more. In my opinion, this is the presence of a supernatural creator God, who is the God of the bible.
2. The God of the bible is unique. He spoke directly to people explaining who He was, rather than being mysterious. He came to live in the world with in the person of Jesus Christ. Jesus made incredible claims that he was God and yet was not insane as many others who claim this are as he maintained realtionships with many people and was followed by many people. He died and then was raised to life – again different to many other gods (none that I know of have died and rised to life).
3. Not all Christians believe in the ‘young earth creation’. I personally believe that the 6 days in Genesis are not literal 6 24hr days. There is (and rightly so) a variety of thoughts among Christians about the ‘how’ of creation. The bible is not explicit about this, and so Christians cannot be explicit. However, what Christians DO believe is that God created the universe – the how is of secondary importance. As an aside, the how question will never answer the why question of the universe and the God of the bible provides this answer.
4. Your comment that ‘non belief’ is not a belief is slightly confusing. To say that you are a ‘non believer’ in god is synonomous with saying that you believe that there is no god, thus you have a belief. As an aside, the term ‘atheist’ is not “lack of a belief in a god or gods”, but the affirmation that there is no god. This is an absolute statement that god does not exist (i.e. it will always be true). Affirming an absolute negative is self defeating, it is saying ‘I have infinite knowledge in order to say to you that there is nobody with infinite knowledge’.
5. This evidence provided is an observation on how things have happened and work. This does not disprove God, but merely shows the how of creation (similar answer to quesiton 3). I would also say that in my opinion, that these things point to a creator.
6. [This question is much more compex, and I apologise in advance if my answer seems trite.] The definition of God is what is at the base of this question. To say that there are created things (i.e. things that were once not there) means that there has also to be a category for things that were not created (i.e. were always there). The God of the bible is not a created thing and therfore lies outside of creation (i.e. was always there). Personally, I find that believing in a creator being (God) who is outside of the created order takes a much smaller leap of faith than believing in a complex, chaotic universe that always was.
I hope my answers had at least addressed some of your questions. It was my intention to truly engage with your questions and not side step them.
If I may, could I ask a question of you? In your worldview, where do you derive your sense of hope?
Luke
Thanks for your reply, I do appreciate it!
I do not think we can change each others beliefs, however I was being honest with what needs to be confronted better than it is now. I do understand that these questions cannot be answered in a reply here, but I think solid answers to them need to be put forward in some way. It’s a start, and the following may give you the interpretation of one who does not see things from within your faiths concepts of what is ‘obvious’
One thing I will point out, is it is one thing to hold a belief that others dispute, it is another to not have a belief and be persecuted for it in regards those with it have more rights enshrined in law than those that do not. Peoples beliefs should not give them rights above and beyond those that do not hold them, especially when those beliefs are based soley on faith, with no evidence. Effectively, this combined influence of religion and the state is what is being confronted.
A great article to try and explain how this can make one feel in a society dominated by one particular belief, is this read http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/11/15/12016/649 although it’s US specific, in Australia the current is a lot deeper, and we do not have the protection in our classrooms or specific seperation of church and state the US enjoys (you may be interested in what a high court judge said about section 116 of the constitution http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/high_ct/146clr559.html) indeed the religious are fighting a bill of rights as
However, as you say, too many points to reasonably put in a reply on a blog. I will attempt to possibly respond with a more accurate and up-beat post on our critique site at some stage, that may help with having you come to grips with the areas faith is really lacking what is needed to ‘spread your word’, that being evidence, logic and reason put forward in a realistic way rather than just claims at answers, that is really just pointing out commonly held evolutionary concepts of right and wrong due to us being social animals.
1. The ‘design’ you claim to see is far from self-evident and is demonstrated by the difficulty you have in trying to describe the evidence for it. Your just making assumptions, and pretty far fetched ones at that, based on your exposure to a religion that has a deep level of exposure in our society. There are good reasons why folk see things as designed as well, namely people have a habit of attributing our human-like qualities to all sorts of things, we anthropomorphise. Evolution and the process of designing something, have much in common. There are trial-and-error modifications of existing forms and discarding of inferior versions. This facet of evolution, or in cosmology the expansion of the universe and the harmony that process creates, are very much explained in detail by simple processes. Evolution is just one example. These processes can be tested and can be falsified. The concept of ‘design’ cannot. There is a myriad of happenings and adaptions that lead to an object, all of which are not explained or are looked over in views such as the creationist literal interpretations of the bible. They do not confront the mass of evidence, and try and point out that which is not known as yet as some sort of evidence for god.
2. Well really I don’t see how this is any different than most all religions, in fact, I can choose one religion that came from the same area and just replace the words (and add a little more on as well(
The god Osirus is unique. He spoke directly to people explaining who he was, rather than being mysterious. He came to live in the world with in the person of Horus. Horus made incredible claims that he was God and yet was not insane as many others who claim this are as he maintained realtionships with many people and was followed by many people. He died and then was raised to life – again different to many other gods (none that I know of have died and rised to life).
Not only that, but Horus was born of a virgin (Isis-Merion), his birth attended by three wise men and announced by a star in the East. Horus was baptised by Anup the Baptiser, who was later decapitated. He had 12 desciples, exorcised demons and performed miracles such as raising El-Azarus from the dead. Horus ended up being crucified between two thieves, then buried for three days in a tomb, and lo and behold, resurrected.
My point is you aren’t showing how your god is the one true god, amongst hundreds of others, and thousands that have gone before you at all. You provide as much evidence as could be provided for Thor, and your wording is just full of assumption. This is a real problem that I don’t think christians understand, as they are blinded by faith to the way they are putting forward their views.
3. Indeed. Many christians do not believe in the bible literally. But who is to say what is literal and what is not? If you state that part of the bible is not to be taken literally, where does it state that in the text, and what is to stop any part of it, indeed all of it, being just a fable as well? You seem to be basically cherry picking choosing fact and. We now have the situation where based on belief, religion will be allowed to discriminate.
oh, missed your question
My sense of hope is because I know that humans are an inherently social animal, and inherently ‘good’ because of that. We live in a world where there is good people and evil people, but religion muddies those waters with dogma that leads to good people doing evil things.
Thanks for your response. You are right, we will not change one anothers viewpoints in a blog comment section!
Thank you for your comments and honesty. I will have a think about the points you have made and will take these into account when talking to others about my faith.
In regards to the ‘cherry picking’ of the bible, I’m sorry if that is what came across. I believe that the bible is the infallible word of God. There are many different genres within the bible (poetry, narrative, letter, metaphor imagery) and we need to use our human intellect to interpret these. The point I was making is that the important part of the creation is that God created the world.
Luke
Thanks Luke & Gee Sus for your dialogue.
ok if it is the infallible word of god, and your not cherry picking .. I suppose all the below as a start is just poetry, narrative, letter, metaphor or imagery?
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven
Matthew 5:18-19
sin is transgression of the law
1 John 3:4
Whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committs adultery
Matthew 5:32, 19:9 & Luke 16:18
And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room (or closet.) and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret…
Matthew 6:5-6 RSV
…but any woman who prays or prophecies with her head unveiled dishonors her head… For if a woman will not veil herself, then we should cut off her hair: but if it be disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil… Judge for yourself; is it proper for a woman to pray to God with head uncovered?
1 Corinthians 11:5-13 RSV
Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
l Corinthians 11:14
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak
1 Corinthians 14:34
The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God
Deuteronomy 22:5
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Matthew 6:7
…that women should adorn themselves modestly and sensibly in seemly apparel, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly attire
Timothy 2:9
Let not yours be the outward adorning of braiding of hair, decoration of gold, and wearing of fine clothing
1 Peter 3 :3
If any man come to me, and not hate his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sister, yet, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple
Luke 14:26
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven
Matthew 23:9
You should kill rebellious children
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
You should kill adulterers and rape victims
Deuteronomy 22:23-24
Anyone who blaphemes should die.
Leviticus 24:16
Christians who convert to another religion should be put to death
Deuteronomy 13:5-10
Jesus says divorced women should not remarry
Mark 10:11
Women cannot teach men
2 Timothy 11-12
Women may not speak in church
1 Cor 14:33-36
And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the Lord’s…And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the Lord
Leviticus 27:30-32
Eating pork is forbidden
Deuteronomy 14:8
Money cannot be lent at interest to your brother, only to foreigners
Deuteronomy 23: 19-20
A man must marry and have relations with his dead brothers wife
Deuteronomy 25:5-6
A raped, unengaged virgin must marry her rapist and they can never divorce
Deuteronomy 22:28-29
I’m not sure if there is a question there, but I will say that each of those verses quoted have a context (within the chapter, book and bible) and so must be read in that context rather than in isolation.
Luke
Luke, I have read and studied religious literature and mythology for over 30 years and I have never met any christian groups that agree on context, how is a lay person supposed to accept the context you say is right?
Have a look at the whole surrounding passages from just one then, 1 Timothy 2:12 ‘But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.’ Is their really a lack of context with this passage? Seems very straight forward.
What about Leviticus? I mean, that is practically a list of things direct from gods mouth and very explicit. Are you saying that gods word has to be interpreted differently? You would think a god giving clear directions, didn’t want you to go off and interpret them .. to take one literally and disregard another ..
Either the bible is the actual infallible word of god, or you are saying that this god made it’s divine book so convoluted that it takes years of study being taught how to read it ‘properly’ to get the actual meaning, throwing in extremely clear references to laws, that really should not be followed. Which is it? Is this god trying to trick us with this book?
Even if you believe the book to be infallible, rationally you must always recognise the possibility that we as humans are not infallible, and that we could be mistaken about that belief. Even if we believe the book to be infallible, how could you recognise it as such? There is no way to answer that question that does not also assume your own infallibility.
Do you accept you could be mistaken? Or are you infallible? To abandon doubts and trust in in-errancy is not a solution to the problem, it is a refusal to face the problem it presents.
Anyway, what concerns me is you peddle interpretation, your interpretation, as truth, while actively as a group called christianity, hinder others from being able to offer alternatives to that, actively fighting for the ability to discriminate based on your belief, and the ability to stop other parents from allowing their children to learn, while you pass on this lack of critical thinking to your own children in scripture class.
And you wonder why people turn away from your religion with diversionary garbage techniques like that.
e.g. when someone takes a “cheap shot” and says something like “There’s no proof of god.”
Asking
* “what do you mean by that” = do I have to repeat such a simple thing?
* “How did you come to that conclusion?” = because there’s no proof dummy
* “Can you give me an example of that?” = that’s the point dummy, there’s no proof whatsoever.
* How do you know that? = If there was some proof then you wouldn’t be trying to deflect a simple statement with a question
* “Yeah, wow that is a valid point, can you slow down and tell me how you came to that conclusion?” = 2000 years for christianity and still nothing even remotely conclusive. Same for other religions.
Cheap shots often result in a knock out you know. Particularly when the person has nothing to respond with (as you’ve demonstrated).
Let me ask you the “All Religions are basically the same” in a slightly more pointed way:
On what basis do you know that Christianity is correct but Islam is wrong?
I really can’t see any way for you to answer that without it boiling down to “no proof” vs “no proof”. e.g. a question of one type of “faith” (belief without any proof) versus another. Both equally justified, both equally fairytale like. Bible says it is the word of god and is true, qur’an says same damned thing. Mohammed definitely existed and there’s far more external accounts of him than of Jesus.
Gee Sus… thats for commenting back n forth with Luke.
I agree with Luke on the interpretation issue with context. We need to understand the metanarrative that we belong to or that the scriptures belong to. We believe the bible is one narrative, that each book cannot be read out of context of the others and because we hold the scriptures as authoritative we trust it above ourselves.
How can a lay person or any person clergy or whoever understand… read the whole counsel of God (all of the scriptures) and wrestle with it. Join in with others to ponder and question and discuss and more importantly ask God to reveal the truth in it to you.
I agree with you on the infallibility of humans and so it is good that humans like me or yourself are not the authority, but an external & objective party is: God
Hi Nath,
Thanks for your comments. Often Christians get sidelined by questions like this and feel like they have no space to respond. These questions I have suggested help slow the conversation down so that a proper dialogue can happen and perhaps find out what the true objection to God really is. If there being no proof is your genuine question, and the person I am talking to is genuinely keen to know ‘proof’ through the historical claims of Jesus Christ then I would love to share that with them. But there has to be a willingness on the others part to want to hear this. Often questions asking people their thoughts helps us Christians know whether you want to talk to us genuinely or are they more attacking us and shutting down communication.
* “what do you mean by that” = do I have to repeat such a simple thing? not everything you say is clear and nor does everything that I say come out with clarity. I think it is polite and perfectly acceptable when in conversation with someone to ask “yes if you could please, I am not sure what you mean by …”
* “How did you come to that conclusion?” = because there’s no proof dummy
also these questions are not necessarily going to be used on the same question… they are just some to help get to the real questions.
All religions are basically the same: this is one of the biggest lies. “On what basis do you know that Christianity is correct but Islam is wrong?” Good question… I guess we can even write that question the other way around “On what basis do you know that Islam is correct and Christianity is wrong?”. The answer is that both of these religions cancel the other out by contradicting the truth that the other claims. That is the basic premise of claiming objective truth. You can’t have two truths, only one can be right. You need to investigate to work out which one holds up.
That’s the thing you skip over again: how. Can you differentiate between “Islam is right” vs “Christianity is right” vs “Scientology is right”?
Certainly anything you say about Jesus, the bible and Christianity a Muslim can say about Mohammed, the qur’an and Islam.
Claims about Jesus as a historical figure are really not going to yield much if you want non biblical sources, but I’m sure you know that, so let’s not waste time. Any evidence for Jesus is swamped by proof that Mohammed lived and did as the qu’ran said. Doesn’t make the claims of supernatural rubbish any more real. If I found a harry potter who lived under the stairs: doesn’t mean magic exists, just that the name exists.
Tell me what proof there is of one over the others. For such a “critical” thing (e.g eternal torture if you get the wrong one according to two of those) you’d think it’d be an easy question to answer. So, without vague answers: why not Islam? What holds up about one faith and not the other?
The resurrection of Jesus Christ is a huge differentiating feature of Christianity. So certainly anything you say cannot be said about Jesus and Mohammed.
What non-biblical sources are you aware of?
I don’t deny that Mohammad lived. I don’t deny Jesus lived.
It’s what they taught, claimed and did in their lives that need accessing… especially the claim that Jesus has power of death and power to give life.
http://www.publicchristianity.com/Videos/hagner2.html
http://www.publicchristianity.com/saneresurrection.html
“find out what the true objection to God really is”
There’s you problem, you have a position and view it from a specific angle, and your wrong in judging the position as above.
It’s not an objection to god, it’s not accepting that what you say is infallible or true without some logic or evidence that supports it that outweighs the sheer SILENCE that we see everywhere else but your interpretation of your book.
Simple things you give complex answers too and claim it makes sense, your ‘answers’ are in fact extremely complex and convoluted.
Suffering occurs because the processes of DNA/protein replication leading to evolution is impartial, as is the universe. We have solid, consistant evidence for this, indeed we can show how RNA can be created in the laboratory with very simple climatic conditions, and that it can act as a bridge in self assembly, evolving to a form such as DNA and proteins which self-replicate via very well understood processes.
Where is there anything that compares from the religious camp? Have you got such a clear expression of why suffering occurs?
I’d argue if you spent as much time looking at the wondrous world and it’s building blocks as you do your sacred text, you would be astounded and humbled with what you are actually dealing with, but instead you argue interpretation of a book instead.
Elsewhere on another blog I think you are involved with, there was a subject brought up ‘Does god exist?’ With many references to a Dr Craig’s works.
http://communicatejesus.com/2009/09/does-god-exist/
What we have here, is probably the biggest name in apologetic debates, and I emphasise debates, and his Kalam Cosmological Argument put forward as ‘evidence’.
Sure he impresses those that do not inquire, as he is extremely good at a chess game of logic, thru his preperation for debates. Most debating him are not prepared for his ability in that regard.
The problem is it is still supposition. His first premise is something he cannot know, and thus the logic of the whole argument is lost. I can go into concepts of space/time etc as well, but to try and keep it understandable, I will try and keep it brief.
The supposition that anything caused must have a cause is flawed logic when one creates the answer ‘therefore god’, as this leads to the logical conclusion, that this god must have a cause, in infinite regress.
He makes the supposition that time has specific formats that fit his model. Where for causality to occur, there must be time. Where there is no time, there is no causality. It is a paradox of creation. The problem for Dr Craig, is he has to prove that which no scientist yet knows, is the version of time that he defines it as AND explain how something effectively comes from nothing, with no causality.
It also leaves one having to make the leap to explaining how one gets from this ‘creation’ to the concept of a god as put forward by christianity, explaining how one understands something that is beyond all that can be known. It is a leap from what looks to be simple, to explaining how this ‘force’ would be the massively complex one described, and not extremely simple, as we see with any other process within the universe.
The problem as I see it, is the arguments for a god just try and fill the gaps in real knowledge through obfuscation. Sometimes as I would call it in the case of many here, yourself included, the intentions are honourable, but for many that are referenced by such people as yourselves, they actively are muddying very clear facts to justify their jesus, indeed I would argue many are lying for jesus, ignoring effectively all evidence (Kirk and Mr Comfort is just one such example of this. Another is Dr Craig who is difficult for the average person to follow the logical processes required to really invalidate his methods of projecting supposition without a good knowledge of the subject of time and space. He effectively uses big words to lose you in the argument, and you as christians, end up just trusting, rather than understanding, the deeper arguments he puts forth)
Seriously Hayley, I should have added to the last post ..
.. don’t fall into this position of defending your faith through obfuscation and misdirection as you have in this post. That is close mindedness, and as you do believe in a god, that would be the last thing it would want you to do with your god-given brain. Not use it.
“What non-biblical sources are you aware of?”
There are none. There is no mention of jesus of the bible, outside of it.
“It’s what they taught, claimed and did in their lives that need accessing… especially the claim that Jesus has power of death and power to give life.”
No it’s not anymore than what one can learn from Bilbo Baggins or Gandalph within the book, The Lord Of the Rings.
You just leap the whole logic and reason process and point at your conclusion as an answer, without any process of getting there. This is no different to Islam, Krshna, belief in Thor etc etc etc.
A couple of thoughts:
Suffering occurs because evolution is impartial? I think thats a stretch…
Jesus is much different to Thor, Bilbo Baggins, etc because he was real. If you want to debate that there is no proof for God, whatever. But to say that there is no proof that Jesus existed is really rather silly. The 4 gospels (yes, shock horror, they are in the bible) are accepted by historians (not just Christian ones) as historical documents. Josephus (a Jewish scholar) made mention of a ‘man called Jesus, who taught, had followers, was killed and these followers claim he came back from the dead’. There is dispute how much those pesky Christians have tampered with the text (in terms of Josephus saying that Jesus was the Christ, etc), but it remains that he mentioned Jesus.
One last thing. Christians are said to (stupidly) base their lives and observations of the world and put faith in one book – the bible. Is that different to the observations that other have made on the world after putting faith in other books (e.g. Darwins “Origin of the Species”, Dawkins “The god Delusion”, etc)? I think the argument that it is stupid to put ones faith in a book, is really irrelevant.
Anyway, its been an interesting read. Thanks all! Now I must get back to work!
One (really) last thing – While this discussion has been interesting, we must really get back on point. Regardless of your viewpoint on Jesus; whether you think him a good teacher, a prophet or just a man (as previously said, you can’t conclude he is fictious), the fact remains that you must have a response to what he has said. As CS Lewis said, you cannot have a neutral view on him, he hasn’t left room for that – either he is a liar, a lunatic or God.
I would encourage therefore, rather than constantly pointing out how stupid Christians are, take some time to look into the person they follow (just as we take the time to listen to and engage with your views). Read a gospel (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Mark) – they’re only short!
Cheers for the memories!
Luke
How is it a stretch Luke? Either you don’t understand what evolution is, or you are just obfuscating the direct evidence that sees all things live off each other. Where is evolution not impartial to suffering?
‘Because he was real’ .. Mohammad was real, so was buddha, you have as much evidence for your jesus as Thor, Odin, Osiris, Mithra or most other major religions gods, why do you deny them then?
Regardless of whether you or CS Lewis, (whos logic has MASSIVE holes) think it is a solid premise to state jesus existed, you must establish that for any credibility, and you cannot above any other faith. Indeed there is a total silence of historical evidence .. your just making an unsubstantiated claim! Either you are just ignorant of the status of the bible with regard historical evidence, or you are deliberately claiming something you know to be false.
Name one historian of the time, that recorded anything about jesus, let alone miracles thousands of people were supposedly exposed too.
NONE of these do :
Josephus
Philo-Judæus
Seneca
Pliny Elder
Arrian
Petronius
Dion Pruseus
Paterculus
Suetonius
Juvenal
Martial
Persius
Plutarch
Pliny Younger
Tacitus
Justus of Tiberius
Apollonius
Quintilian
Lucanus
Epictetus
Hermogones Silius Italicus
Statius
Ptolemy
Appian
Phlegon
Phædrus
Valerius Maximus
Lucian
Pausanias
Florus Lucius
Quintius Curtius
Aulus Gellius
Dio Chrysostom
Columella
Valerius Flaccus
Damis
Favorinus
Lysias
Pomponius Mela
Appion of Alexandria
Theon of Smyrn
A case in point, you mention Josephus .. have you read his work? Here is the evidence you are talking about, the only mention of jesus from Josephus :
http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text/josephus/ant20.html#EndNote_ANT_20.23a
Usually christians such as yourself leave out the bit about how he was the son of Damneus, and brother to James who was the one called Christ, and was made high priest. Doesn’t quite sound like the jesus you claim, considering it such a common name.
No historian takes that passage for any evidence, yet christians continually drop Josephus, because they do not read it themselves, and only hear it from others stating the same thing .. and you wonder why we question this falsity you put forward?
I do not put my faith in a book. I look at the evidence, and evaluate it based on logic and reason. I am open to changing my position on anything given a shift of balance, but you are not. You point to these books as tho they are all that is, only because you ignore all the other evidence that is all around us in museums, in cosmology, geology, chemistry, biology you name it. You try and make idolatory figures of outspoken proponents of widely held considerations of fact as you do with your own book.
Darwin wrote a theory about WHY evolution occurs he was only the first to find one strong concept within it. In science, theory means something, it does not mean the whole concept is still in dispute, evolution is fact, it is talking about the mechanism. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret fact. A current theory is a theory that has no equally acceptable or more acceptable alternative theory, and has survived attempts at falsification. That is there have been no observations made which contradict it to this point and, indeed, every observation ever made either supports the current theory or at least does not falsify it by contradicting it completely. A revision of the current theory, or the generation of a new theory is necessary if new observations contradict the current theory, as the current findings are in need of a new explanation. However, the falsification of a theory does not falsify the facts on which the theory is based.
You wonder why folk have trouble dealing with all this denial. The problem is, you are teaching this lack of critical thinking and basic understanding to kids in the name of ‘good’. What’s worse, is that our children are denied from learning ethics and critical thinking outside of your structures, by your christian networks, and literally having our children not be able to be taught anything, while you continue this ignorance.
Yes I am frustrated, that is why. You methodologies must be confronted logically. Please show us the logic, reason and evidence and stop the obfuscation of fact before fighting to maintain your rights over those of non-believers.
I am also frustrated you tell us to suspend this logic and just read the message. There is NOTHING that jesus puts forward that cannot be gained any other way, or is not inherant to the fact we are a social, evolved animal. The problem is, humans ‘interpret’ this text to substantiate bigotry and higher morality claims, to maintain rights over others.
Modern Christian scholars generally concede that the Josphus passage is a forgery. Dr. Lardner, one of the ablest defenders of Christianity, adduces the following arguments against its genuineness:
“I do not perceive that we at all want the suspected testimony to Jesus, which was never quoted by any of our Christian ancestors before Eusebius.
“Nor do I recollect that Josephus has anywhere mentioned the name or word Christ, in any of his works; except the testimony above mentioned, and the passage concerning James, the Lord’s brother.
“It interrupts the narrative.
“The language is quite Christian.
“It is not quoted by Chrysostom, though he often refers to Josephus, and could not have omitted quoting it had it been then in the text.
“It is not quoted by Photius, though he has three articles concerning Josephus.
“Under the article Justus of Tiberias, this author (Photius) especially states that the historian [Josephus], being a Jew, has not taken the least notice of Christ.
“Neither Justin in his dialogue with Trypho the Jew, nor Clemens Alexandrinus, who made so many extracts from ancient authors, nor Origen against Celsus, has ever mentioned this testimony.
“But, on the contrary, in chapter xxxv of the first book of that work, Origen openly affirms that Josephus, who had mentioned John the Baptist, did not acknowledge Christ” (Answer to Dr. Chandler).
Again Dr. Lardner says: “This passage is not quoted nor referred to by any Christian writer before Eusebius, who flourished at the beginning of the fourth century. If it had been originally in the works of Josephus it would have been highly proper to produce it in their disputes with Jews and Gentiles. But it is never quoted by Justin Martyr, or Clement of Alexandria, nor by Tertullian or Origen, men of great learning, and well acquainted with the works of Josephus. It was certainly very proper to urge it against the Jews. It might also have been fitly urged against the Gentiles. A testimony so favorable to Jesus in the works of Josephus, who lived so soon after our Savior, who was so well acquainted with the transactions of his own country, who had received so many favors from Vespasian and Titus, would not be overlooked or neglected by any Christian apologist” (Lardner’s Works, vol. I, chap. iv).
Hey Hayley,
You say:
“The resurrection of Jesus Christ is a huge differentiating feature of Christianity.”
Are you not aware of the truly massive number of examples of this in mythology? That’s kinda what defines a god really: the ability to cheat death and rise again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-death-rebirth_deity
If you want to know where your precious Jesus son of god (or is that Sun god) came from then Christianity pinches loads from Egyptian mythology. The ten commandments are also pinched from them by the way (see the book of the dead, just changed tense).
If a story about coming back to life is all you need to believe: I’ve some stocks in a religion based on Phoenix’s you might be interested in. That’s even cooler because it’s a thousand year life span bird rather than some crusty guy with a beard.
So if that’s your answer as to how to differentiate between islam: I’ll change Islam to one of the religions that involve a deity as man dying and coming back to life. Amount of proof of Jesus being resurrected = zero. Amount of proof of any resurrection = zero.
So explain it to me will you?